Curse

The Human Torch · Jul 08, 2005, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan

Indeed?

Well... let me try this one, then:

There is no UAx in the game because adding one would impair the flexibility available to the designers in expanding the game.

The designers have goals in mind of what they would like to accomplish with this game, in terms of strategic and tactical 'depth'.

I have offered the example—not that I expect it to be implemented, but it is one possibility—that at some point, resources available to PvP teams will act as actual controllable resources, i.e., it will be possible to either re-lock or even 'steal' an enemy's access to a skill, rune or weapon upgrade. Even the possibility of this option would be intrinsically denied if UAx were available.

Another possibility includes long-term PvP rewards, such as the winners of a tournament being granted access to a 'special' skill that only members of that guild could use: UAx sets a precedent against this option.

These are only a couple of ideas; any creative team such as ArenaNet could come up with a dozen others.

And before you offer specific objections to these specific ideas—respond to the underlying idea: that implementation of a UAx system would close off entire domains of future design options, and open up none.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Your examples of design options are limiting the options of the other team? What do you mean "re-locking" of skills? You're saying that there should be pvp types where I can spend 3k faction on an elite, then go in there and have it locked away again? And skills that only a small fraction of the populace could ever use are the most detrimental things they could add to the game.

Because you wanted me to respond to the idea, not the examples, I have this to say. There are just as many options for UAX as there are for locks. Look at games where things are fair for all competitors, and see how many options they have. Options for a locked system are narrow and only serve to make the competition more time-based than skill-based, which is the opposite of what the game was advertised to be.

JoDiamonds · Jul 08, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

You've said that sports are fair, arredondo. They aren't. If they were, McNabb would have been given some leeway on the clock after he started vomiting on the field in the last SuperBowl. lol

Not all sports are fair in every way. That is irrelevant: Shouldn't we strive to make things fair? Should we simply tolerate all problems in Guild Wars if similar problems exist elsewhere?

Focus on (what is hopefully) the goal: Making Guild Wars a better game. Screw professional sports.

MuKen · Jul 08, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

How many teams does the league itself provide domed stadiums for? The best grass? Is there a consistent top-of-the-line quality throughout the league, provided by the league? The league can't control the weather, but they sure as hell can control how the weather hits the players...and do you see anything being done to "balance" that?

You've said that sports are fair, arredondo. They aren't. If they were, McNabb would have been given some leeway on the clock after he started vomiting on the field in the last SuperBowl. lol

I believe the main point of the sports analogy was that sports aim to be fair. Everything in the league and in the rules aims towards an even playing ground, and the only unfair things are those that cannot be controlled (finances, geography, etc.)

The unfair points you have brought up like weather and whatnot are are paralleled by things like lag which we have no control over. It doesn't matter that the league doesn't go out and provide domes to create fair weather conditions for everybody, we can't expect them to expend ridiculous amounts of time and money to create fairness (just like we can't expect A.net to go out and ensure good connections for all their players). But that's a big difference from having the league actually put in rules that work against fair play.

The issue of UAX is something that can be controlled and made fair, and if we are to hold to the sports analogy, would be akin to making rules that football players have to unlock certain plays by winning games before they can use them.

However, I still contend that GuildWars does not aim to be a sport, anyhow. The crux of this argument, as I have said before, should be "what would the most players find fun?"

There is no way to logically prove that UAX should or shouldn't be there outside of answering this question. It's a waste of time to discuss the validity of all these comparisons to other competitive venues.

arredondo · Jul 08, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

How many teams does the league itself provide domed stadiums for? The best grass? Is there a consistent top-of-the-line quality throughout the league, provided by the league? The league can't control the weather, but they sure as hell can control how the weather hits the players...and do you see anything being done to "balance" that?

You've said that sports are fair, arredondo. They aren't. If they were, McNabb would have been given some leeway on the clock after he started vomiting on the field in the last SuperBowl. lol

The city and the owners pay for those things amigo, not the league. That's why my home of Los Angeles is without a team... we won't pay for a stadium and the owners are greedy enough to try and hold out.

Bottom line, the rules are written to be fair to each team and its players in regards to gear access needed to succeed when they step out to play. That's the only thing I've been discussing, and you bring up everything but something anywhere close to this point. Competitive activities are to ensure their RULES do not give biased treatment one way or the other. Stop talking about things OUTSDE the league's control and you'll finally get it.

Strike 71.... you're out.

JoDiamonds · Jul 09, 2005, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

There is no way to logically prove that UAX should or shouldn't be there outside of answering this question. It's a waste of time to discuss the validity of all these comparisons to other competitive venues.

Largely. It's useful to explore and compare to some extent. This thread has certainly had a ton of rehashing of ideas beyond the point of usefulness. For many of the ideas, anyway.

Siren · Jul 09, 2005, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

The city and the owners pay for those things amigo, not the league. That's why my home of Los Angeles is without a team... we won't pay for a stadium and the owners are greedy enough to try and hold out.

Bottom line, the rules are written to be fair to each team and its players in regards to gear access needed to succeed when they step out to play. That's the only thing I've been discussing, and you bring up everything but something anywhere close to this point. Competitive activities are to ensure their RULES do not give biased treatment one way or the other. Stop talking about things OUTSDE the league's control and you'll finally get it.

Strike 71.... you're out.

And what "gear" are you referring to? What gear in GW are you talking about? Skills? Armor? Weapons? Upgrades?

Sports leagues supply the players with the basic gear (i.e., a helmet and pads, basically). GuildWars supplies players with helmets, armor, weapons, and starter skills. That's the basic gear needed to play the game and the basic gear required for the player to be successful in some form or another.

Upgrades and advanced skills are advanced equipment.

Why don't sports have advanced upgrades and skills while GW does?

Because GW is a video game.

JoDiamonds · Jul 09, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And what "gear" are you referring to? What gear in GW are you talking about? Skills? Armor? Weapons? Upgrades?

Sports leagues supply the players with the basic gear (i.e., a helmet and pads, basically). GuildWars supplies players with helmets, armor, weapons, and starter skills. That's the basic gear needed to play the game and the basic gear required for the player to be successful in some form or another.

Upgrades and advanced skills are advanced equipment.

Why don't sports have advanced upgrades and skills while GW does?

Because GW is a video game.

Why are you pointing this out? I don't understand the relevance.

Phades · Jul 09, 2005, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

No, it isn't. I'm not arguing for the system to be completely excised from the game...never have been. In the course of the discussion here, I've never condoned removing the PvP unlock system. I'm not sure where you're going with your post, but I'm telling you what I'm arguing and what Arre has been arguing...are two entirely different things.

I've re-iterated numerous times that UAX is a nuclear option at the complete opposite extreme of this spectrum, and only should be considered when all other options have been exhausted, when there is no chance in hell the system can go anywhere else, and most importantly, when it is undeniable from all points of view, developer or otherwise, that no other avenue is possible.

But as it stands now? We've not arrived at that point. The system is only a few weeks old and already people are calling for its demise. Perhaps I'm just patient, but I think people are kind of jumping the gun here by ranting and raving like this not even three weeks after the PvP unlock system was updated.

I'm saying that tweaking/altering the system should be tried first.

Others are saying the system should be thrown out entirely without a second thought.

That's not saying the same things here. That's not the same argument. That's not arguing for the same thing, and it's not arguing the same thing.

Im sorry there is no grey area in this instance like you are trying to do. Either you are willing to accept that any amount of grind is acceptable and dont care because you most likely have everything you want or want an advantage over anyone else new. Conversly you are against the idea for a grind in a pvp environment and are for the reduction to removal of any such format limting the player's options within pvp. Pick one and stop dancing around the issue. Trying to a fanboy stance by backing a system that is counter intuitive, because of the developer work invovled in it isnt really a position beyond saying, "hey look, i like the game as it is now". Yet, you do not state this either.

The amount of time the system has existed is irrelevant. Simple calculations will lead towards any estimated time before any new person is competitive and how long it will take before an older person unlocks the few things they dont have yet. This current system is more of a grind, mainly because of the nature of the unlock system within pve, allowing for skipping of content and selective progression to bypass the larger portion of the time it takes to aquire the majority of the skills via quests. This style of progression cannot be rated in as simple caculations as the pvp rewards system. As i stated earlier, this is akin to a stalling tatic found within pay to play services and does not make sense within the mechanics of the pvp system.

Both the pvp and pve systems are flawed inherently, however the only "tuning" that can occur that will make any difference lies within the pve system adjusting the drop rates and quantity of unique monsters further. The pvp system, is inherently flawed as it basically requires the player to own the game for many months before being able to have the basic ability to perform and be flexible. It is further flawed as the two system styles are nearly completely incompatible with each other as it stands now, due to the stasis that the somewhat permenant pve characters get placed into for pvp situations, while the pvp characters are recycled freely as new equipment and skills are generated for them at creation.

54 days spent in front of the computer is neither casual or sane for any "casual" gamer that this is supposadly aimed at, especially when it is just the tip of the iceberg and only applies to the skills. Again ill restate that, if you argue if that number is too high, for any reason, then you are for the removal of the system for the pvp environment because of the eventual accrual of all items and abilities within the game. The amount of time spent to get to that point is irrelevant as people will eventually all be at that point among the people playing now. That does not change the fact that anyone new joining under such a system will be at a distinct disadvantage and will continue to be at a disadvantage throughout all of the upcomming expansions as they continually play catch-up with all of the so called "vets" of the game. That is why the system is flawed, much like it is in other games that are predominantly pay to play schemes, but the difference is that the other games are more pve centric, while this game is more pvp centric.

arredondo · Jul 09, 2005, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Why are you pointing this out? I don't understand the relevance.

He's just grasping at straws. He's trying to make a case (by using the word 'basic' that he got on my case about, lol), that you can't compare a competitive activity like in sports to the competitive activity in GW that is PvP because of how gear works.

Again, the specific comparisons with PvP and ANY competitive activity, sports or otherwise, is ONLY about what the fairness in the rules (created by the 'league') regarding access to gear options. All other competitions have the rules fairly applied, Guild Wars PvP chooses instead an anti-competition system that gives inherent advantages to one side that's favored (due to hundreds of hours of hoop jumping) before battle even begins.

You talk about gear in sports as if its the bottom of the barrel. AGAIN the sports 'league' has specifications on the max allowed stats of gear (like Guild Wars), but the sports leagues don't make you shoot 10,000 free throws in order to access the max stat gear! How many times does this have to be pounded into your head?

Teams and players have access to MAX STAT gear. The league doesn't restrict anyone from using MAX STAT gear. If you want to use MAX STAT gear, just use it! Why go through some ridiculous play mechnic that forces hundreds of hours of grinding just to be able to put on the MAX STAT catcher's mask if you play baseball for the Dodgers? Are you suggesting that they begin with masks made of tin foil, and they should 'unlock' the real deal only when the league is pleased?

No, and so should it be for GW PvP if you are in anyway a fan of competition being only about the skillful play and preparation of one side vs. the other. NO influence by league rules that cause an uneeded imbalance. Let the players determine themsleves who is the better competitior. Don't support the league decision to force one to start one with a tin foil catcher's mask while the other is in a Rawling's pro mask.

Don't support the league decision to force one to start one with a ten skill icons and one rune while the other is choosing fom 147 skill icons and twelve runes. Don't even try to say that all is right with that rule structure if you truly are interested in fair competition. 'Fair' meaning... the PLAYERS determine victory, not league influence.

Please stop your non-sensical arguments. You've widely missed the mark every single time you've responded since the multi-choice question.

PieXags · Jul 09, 2005, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I'm going to have to say everyone's missed eachothers mark, at least in eachother's eyes.

Everyone in this thread has made decent points, most all of them valid. When you get right down to it you're arguing now over OPINIONS, and that's all.

He isn't "grasping at straws" he's responding to what you people posted. If you don't want a response, why post it? Doesn't make sense to me. Everyone by this point is doing the same thing, and all of you have thrown out your points so many times that they hardly mean anything anymore. It's gotten to the point where you've all heard them so many times the only things you can say to one another are "he's just grasping at straws" or "you've missed the mark every time", while giving no backup or justification to these statements.

This argument died a long time ago (or rather, the thousands of arguments all going at once). There is no "right" or "wrong" in this situation. If there was we'd have found it by now.

So...can we just you know, kill this thread already?

arredondo · Jul 09, 2005, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Or, you can take your own advice by not posting that you don't like people posting. We can all debate opinion, and we can also establish facts. Most of the confusion has been on the latter, which is the "mark" that I'm referring to.

I asked he stop the non-sensical arguments in my last post, but he can freely post whatever he wishes as will I. I like the mental exercise of debating for clarity, especially for what I think is a worthy issue...I suspect Siren does as well. Tired of reading? You are in full control of which threads you enter or not.

Loviatar · Jul 09, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

here is what i think is a logical statement which you can flame if you wish.

the more CASUAL the gamer is the less they will need all, most or even a majority of the
skills
runes
upgrades
to have his/her version of FUN

The Human Torch · Jul 09, 2005, 04:36 PM // 16:36

So casual players have fun losing to hardcore players who have grinded more and therefore have more gear? Somehow I don't think that's true for most casual players. We want to have the same gear as hardcore 24-7 playing koreans and let skill decide the outcome of the match, and we don't want to grind as long as they do to do it, either.

Siren · Jul 09, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Why are you pointing this out? I don't understand the relevance.

The relevance is that GuildWars is a video game--a fantasy hack n slash, no less. We're going to be finding enchanted items. We're going to be acquiring better weaponry. We're going to be finding/buying upgrades for our abilities, health, energy, etc. It's how the game works. You're never going to see those types of parallels in professional sports, apart from players corking their bats or taking steroids to enhance their strength, and even then, it's a stretchy, limited parallel to begin with.

To point to professional sports and say that since those players are granted the basic equipment (only helmets and pads, let's be realistic; they're not being granted runes that enhance their health by 100 points, and nothing remotely close to it), and then imply that GuildWars should be identical is missing the point entirely, because there is nothing remotely resembling a Crippling Axe of Fortitude in the real world, in professional sports. If there was, it sure as hell wouldn't be considered basic equipment like a helmet and pads...just like in GuildWars. And if there was, it wouldn't be friendly competition anymore, now would it?

The only reason we have such advanced equipment in this game is because it's a video game, because it's a hyperreality of real life...because it's not real life. Sports, for all intents and purposes, as exaggerated as they may seem sometimes (Mike Tyson, anyone?), are still real life.

I find it amusing when people bring in real life to apply to video games, because largely, it never applies, especially when talking about how characters interact with each other from a gameplay perspective.

It makes me wonder just who's getting compared here. Are we, the gamers, getting compared to the athletes? Or are our characters getting compared?

Comparing us, the gamers, to the athletes seems absurd, because athletes train rigorous, physically demanding schedules to be able to do what they do. A gamer does what? Sits on his ass and hits buttons, and develops timing. That's all. Actually performing in a sport is exponentially more involved than what any of us do in any game.

And yet some think it's perfectly reasonable to establish a parallel between the two? Perhaps on the grounds that as we don't continue to hone our skills, that they will degrade? Sounds a bit more reasonable, but again, the extent to which the respective skills of the athletes and the gamer will degrade is radically different. If a gamer doesn't play a game for a year, the decline isn't terribly dramatic and the gamer can "warm up" in a relatively short amount of time. If an athlete doesn't play a game for a year, however, their re-training process will be exponentially longer than the gamer's; some have taken years.

Maybe comparing our characters to the athletes? Seems a bit more reasonable, given that athletes get equipped, and our characters, do, as well. But again, how sound is this parallel? If an athlete doesn't play and practice for long periods of time, his or her physical abilities begin to dwindle. Does this happen to bits of coding? If we don't play our character for long periods of time, are that character's abilities going to wane?

No.

This isn't grasping at straws; this is pointing out that these two things are radically different in so many ways that it makes absolutely no sense to try to compare them on any level. To say that all competition depends upon one golden rule is effectively establishing a parallel between the competitors, and the systems in which those competitors participate. The competitors here are not even in the same league (they're not even in the same sport). The systems are nowhere near similar.

To say that the leagues grant players "MAX STAT gear" is vastly minimizing the fundamental differences between real life sports and video games. A top-of-the-line Nike shoe is simply not comparable to Underworld items. You're talking about a shoe versus a souped-up sword with damage mods out the wazoo that requires 13 swordsmanship to wield appropriately. "Max stat" is a simplistic, black and white label that ultimately can only be used when everything is viewed in those simplistic, black and white, "the world must be this one way and this one way only, all the way through," tunnel vision points of view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

1) Either you are willing to accept that any amount of grind is acceptable and dont care because you most likely have everything you want or want an advantage over anyone else new.

2) Conversly you are against the idea for a grind in a pvp environment and are for the reduction to removal of any such format limting the player's options within pvp. Pick one and stop dancing around the issue.

Trying to a fanboy stance by backing a system that is counter intuitive, because of the developer work invovled in it isnt really a position beyond saying, "hey look, i like the game as it is now". Yet, you do not state this either.

Neither.

Your first statement is inaccurate because I don't have everything...not by a longshot, and I don't want an advantage over anyone else.

But your second statement is also inaccurate, because I'm not entirely against the idea of an unlock system. In fact, I think it's a pretty nice idea.

But because I'm not sucking the c-cks of the hardcore PvPers who are doing little more than whining and complaining without suggesting any real solutions, and because I'm reluctant to completely excise an entire system only two weeks after its conception, without at least first exploring alternatives that don't involve extreme nuclear options...I'm a fanboy? That seems to be what you're insinuating here.

As I've come to understand it, fanboys are rabid devotees of a particular idea or ideology, and demonstrate absolutely no comprehension of (or consideration to) anything going on outside of their particular, narrow-minded point of view about what they want.

I honestly don't think I've been behaving like that by any stretch of the imagination, but if merely trying to find a reasonable solution to an issue that some players are having a problem with, a solution that isn't the gaming equivalent of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, means I'm a fanboy, then I'm proud to say I'm a fanboy of the worst kind. If the alternative is mindless ranting and raving about how much this game sucks? Please, please, please call me a fanboy. I'd rather be a fanboy than an ungrateful little shit.

But you are correct when you say I just don't care. I don't care about winning. I don't care about losing. But you know what I do care about?

I care about playing the game. I care about having fun. I care about enjoying myself, about jumping into a game where nothing else matters apart from busting up those Charr, or wiping out a hive of Moss Spiders, and not letting something as trivial as an unlock system get in the way of me having fun. I don't mean to get on a soapbox here, but a few others have, so why not. Regardless of what is in the game, some of us are going to dislike it. Regardless of the future state of the game, somebody here is going to bitch and moan about it. It's just how things work.

But should we let ourselves be miserable? F-ck no. Pardon the language, of course, but in the end, we can either sit here and whine all day long about everything in the game, or we can actually make something of the time we have and do something fun in-game.

Now which is it gonna be?

Are we going to bitch and moan about every little thing?

Or do we all agree that there's a group of White Mantle outside of Quarrell Falls that needs to get a serious beatdown? lol

Loviatar · Jul 09, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Human Torch

So casual players have fun losing to hardcore players who have grinded more and therefore have more gear? Somehow I don't think that's true for most casual players. We want to have the same gear as hardcore 24-7 playing koreans and let skill decide the outcome of the match, and we don't want to grind as long as they do to do it, either.

not at all

the truly casual player will grab a template and do a bit of low level stuff against other low level people and have fun doing it

refer to Stumpys pve brother who as a casual noon to pvp won enough faction that he is continuing on this route to unlock several specific items rather than chance in pve drops

this shows that a noob doesnt have to lose by definition

casual is low level play for fun and not worry where your standing is or rank

competition is where winning is everything instead of playing as a game for fun

casual is a pickup game for fun (since sports metaphores abound) as opposed to the big leagues

there may be some *true level playing field* people in top everything dropping into the lower level arenas just to show what the noobs can aspire to while slaughtering them but those are hopefully in the minority of the pvp community

Phades · Jul 09, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Neither.

Your first statement is inaccurate because I don't have everything...not by a longshot, and I don't want an advantage over anyone else.

But your second statement is also inaccurate, because I'm not entirely against the idea of an unlock system. In fact, I think it's a pretty nice idea.

But because I'm not sucking the c-cks of the hardcore PvPers who are doing little more than whining and complaining without suggesting any real solutions, and because I'm reluctant to completely excise an entire system only two weeks after its conception, without at least first exploring alternatives that don't involve extreme nuclear options...I'm a fanboy? That seems to be what you're insinuating here.

As I've come to understand it, fanboys are rabid devotees of a particular idea or ideology, and demonstrate absolutely no comprehension of (or consideration to) anything going on outside of their particular, narrow-minded point of view about what they want.

I honestly don't think I've been behaving like that by any stretch of the imagination, but if merely trying to find a reasonable solution to an issue that some players are having a problem with, a solution that isn't the gaming equivalent of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, means I'm a fanboy, then I'm proud to say I'm a fanboy of the worst kind. If the alternative is mindless ranting and raving about how much this game sucks? Please, please, please call me a fanboy. I'd rather be a fanboy than an ungrateful little shit.

But you are correct when you say I just don't care. I don't care about winning. I don't care about losing. But you know what I do care about?

I care about playing the game. I care about having fun. I care about enjoying myself, about jumping into a game where nothing else matters apart from busting up those Charr, or wiping out a hive of Moss Spiders, and not letting something as trivial as an unlock system get in the way of me having fun. I don't mean to get on a soapbox here, but a few others have, so why not. Regardless of what is in the game, some of us are going to dislike it. Regardless of the future state of the game, somebody here is going to bitch and moan about it. It's just how things work.

But should we let ourselves be miserable? F-ck no. Pardon the language, of course, but in the end, we can either sit here and whine all day long about everything in the game, or we can actually make something of the time we have and do something fun in-game.

Now which is it gonna be?

Are we going to bitch and moan about every little thing?

Or do we all agree that there's a group of White Mantle outside of Quarrell Falls that needs to get a serious beatdown? lol

Where exactly in anything that i said have anything to do with pvp crossing over into pve? Then you go into insults as you have no real argument. The unlock system is fine for pve, it is not for pvp and the two systems as they are now are incompatible with each other. You have stated nothing regarding the seperation and unlocking for the pvp realm from the pve realm. It appears that you read the first few lines of what i type and ignore the rest.

What is it going to be, is that ive trashed the mantle in every way not involving an arrow past ember light camp and could give a damm what they do. What i do care about is when i look down the road the game is taking and i dont like what i see. Others are in a similar position as they see the system as it is now and understand the affects it has over time. What will happen is that people will just stop playing the game because the mechanics lead to a grind, the pvp mechanics does not lead towards alot of replay value, or they are fed up with the bugs in both the pvp and the pve realms. There are most likely more than that among those would and have left the game, while the rest are content to either ignore the issues at hand or dont/havent played enough to see them and understand them. Playing is not limited to this game either to understand the mechanics of what is going on here and to why it is not beneficial.

Siren · Jul 09, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Where exactly in anything that i said have anything to do with pvp crossing over into pve? Then you go into insults as you have no real argument.

My argument is what it's always been, and what I've been repeating throughout this thread, including my previous post:

The UAX system, while attractive, is the nuclear option here. It is the last-ditch decision, one that should be made only when all other options have been thoroughly exhausted, including any tweaking/streamlining of current systems in play. As it stands now, the current PvP unlocking system (which I was talking about in my previous reply) takes longer than most (some) would like it. Personally, I don't think 3k faction points for an Elite skill is appropriate at all, either.

But just because I don't think that the current faction point requirements are appropriate doesn't mean I have to jump over to the other side entirely, screaming for UAX, treating it like it's the only thing left to do...

...because it's not. Far from it, in fact. And if I'm insulting someone here, so be it, but viewing everything here in total black and white is not going to solve anything, like others have said in the past. Despite what you may think, I am one of those people in the middle, Phades, one of those people who enjoys the unlocking system, but understands it has issues, but at the same time, understands that UAX is an extreme that simply is too extreme at this point in time.

Quote:

The unlock system is fine for pve, it is not for pvp and the two systems as they are now are incompatible with each other. You have stated nothing regarding the seperation and unlocking for the pvp realm from the pve realm.

Consider the following:

1) Currently, the faction point requirements of the PvP unlocking system are steep.

2) Currently, the faction point priests can only be found in PvE areas.

3) Currently, it is very difficult for pure PvP characters to unlock anything without going into PvE.

The solution?

1) Adjust the faction point requirements, and adjust the faction point rewards.

2) Place faction point priests in PvP-only (pure PvP) arenas.

3) Pure PvP characters will find it easier and less time-consuming to unlock PvP abilities.

Why not try that before telling us that UAX is the only option available?

Quote:

It appears that you read the first few lines of what i type and ignore the rest.

False.

Quote:

What is it going to be, is that ive trashed the mantle in every way not involving an arrow past ember light camp and could give a damm what they do.

And you entirely missed my point with the White Mantle reference. Either we can sit here bitching about every little thing that bothers us, or we can go play the game and have fun.

Quote:

What i do care about is when i look down the road the game is taking and i dont like what i see. Others are in a similar position as they see the system as it is now and understand the affects it has over time. What will happen is that people will just stop playing the game because the mechanics lead to a grind, the pvp mechanics does not lead towards alot of replay value, or they are fed up with the bugs in both the pvp and the pve realms.

I have no problem with looking down the road. I muse over the future state of any game just as much as the next guy. Starcraft: Ghost, perfect example. The game got delayed by what, three years now? Switched developers? I saw the dev change and became skeptical, even cancelled my pre-order. It's natural to have qualms and worries, surely. I don't disagree with that for a second.

But what I don't agree with doing is looking at a 2-week old system and immediately screaming hellfire and damnation, because that's jumping the gun, in the purest sense of the phrase. Personal opinions aside, if someone were to say that (screaming their pretty little heads off, wanting drastic Hiroshima-magnitude changes) about UAX if it were instituted, you'd tell them they were reacting prematurely, right? Same thing here, just flipped around (that pesky "point of view" thing again).

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There are most likely more than that among those would and have left the game, while the rest are content to either ignore the issues at hand or dont/havent played enough to see them and understand them. Playing is not limited to this game either to understand the mechanics of what is going on here and to why it is not beneficial.

It's not a matter of ignoring the issues at hand, and it's not a matter of not playing enough. It's simply a matter of waiting to see what happens before whining about how something isn't working quite right, or how something won't be working quite right in the future.

I'm not suggesting we ignore anything.

I'm suggesting we all try to keep things in perspective.

Phades · Jul 10, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

You dont consider the following at all.

Pve character gains nothing from pvp. The player only gains something if they abandon the pve character. The premis of the typical pve environment is to have a scalable set of gains in order to face new challenges within the environment. This game has a fixed gain scale and a limited environment, that suggests more tuning and balance for a limited pvp setting. This also ignores the mechanics of the attribute refund points, which also need to get changed and only hamper pve characters. The points should always be available in a non-mission area and not available within a mission area. (For clarity, mission areas being anywhere that is not a map movement location option) Prior to trying out a new build i typically found myself conversing with most of the guys, in my gaming circle that has existed for several years now and has no RL connection, how i could use one or two of them with me to get back the refund points so i could respec before going into pvp or pve situation in order to avoid getting screwed in the long term after they log for the day. Unfortunatly none of them play anymore for most of the reasons ive outlined in earlier posts.

The manner of faction gain is easily observed and can be calculated into real time with no real hassle. There is no need for a wait and see approach as there is no guesswork. It can be easily rated in game hours how long it will take for a new person to get up to speed until they stop playing catch up with the rest of the player base in this system. The current quantity of time involved, even under perfect circumstances, leads to the premis that new people will always be behind the curve as new content comes out. I havent even owned the retail copy of the game for 54 days, but the time i do spend in the game are long sessions per day played.

Looking at a skill for a possible build then considering the hours needed to get it is not fun. Playing against the same copied build sets is not fun. Playing with and against flawed AI, is not fun; especially after playing through the game multiple times on the pve side, because there is no real manipulation beyond the point and click style interface. It becomes more of a job than a game when the number of wins is considered as well. It still does not address the newer player versus the older player scenario where the newer player comes in one of two flavors typically. The first being the guy that knows nothing and has no way to learn than blindly moving through the pvp gains or the pve environment. This is your typical pve clueless PuG guy. The second being someone who looks to others for information without any real experience and taking the shortest path to copy the most effective build percieved. Neither of which are interesting to play with or against, because neither have the knowledge of why the builds work or dont work. Allowing for the experimentation of everything possible is the only real way to learn in any reasonable amount of time for a player.

The fact that pure pvp areas dont exist yet and that is something im advocating. Pvp only areas is a rehaul and scrapping of the entire system as it stands now, which you are trying to argue against. Yet when you state "false" you have no real way to prove it, nor have you shown it by commenting on the solutions i and others have set forth, instead of arguing the possible flaws within the logic behind the solution. To which in turn when your points of argument are contested you have resorted to personal style attacks, dismissal of the comment, or ignoring of the content completely.

Waiting to see while playing = not playing enough to understand.

Loviatar · Jul 10, 2005, 12:21 AM // 00:21

considering that the developers have invested many combined years of careful thought into this game to make it something different and it is only about 2 months old i dont think they are going to suddenly scrap the core ideas of their game.

especially since the reviews continue to be positive for the most part

the ultra hard core competitor pvp person is in a tiny minority here and i dont think you are going to be accomodated in your demands (reasonable as you think they are)

the only thing to do is find a game you enjoy playing AS IT IS or wait to see what this evolves into .

and no i do not think this is perfect as there is a whole wish list i have.

but i consider the game AS IT IS to be enough fun to continue playing it instead of yelling for my ideal game

Siren · Jul 10, 2005, 12:44 AM // 00:44

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Originally Posted by Phades

You dont consider the following at all.

Pve character gains nothing from pvp. The player only gains something if they abandon the pve character. The premis of the typical pve environment is to have a scalable set of gains in order to face new challenges within the environment. This game has a fixed gain scale and a limited environment, that suggests more tuning and balance for a limited pvp setting. This also ignores the mechanics of the attribute refund points, which also need to get changed and only hamper pve characters. The points should always be available in a non-mission area and not available within a mission area. Prior to trying out a new build i typically found myself conversing with most of the guys, in my gaming circle that has existed for several years now and has no RL connection, how i could use one or two of them with me to get back the refund points so i could respec before going into pvp or pve situation in order to avoid getting screwed in the long term after they log for the day. Unfortunatly none of them play anymore for most of the reasons ive outlined in earlier posts.

PvE ascended character (level 20) is the one most likely to do loads of PvP, correct? Level 20 Ascends are also the characters who find it difficult to amass refund points during conventional questing, correct? Further, Level 20 Ascends, with the majority of PvE complete, have PvP left, correct?

Solution to the refund point dilemma for Level 20 Ascends (and really, any PvErs who are doing PvP):

Granting refund points through PvP. There's another thread on this, with a few good suggestions. Either through kills, victories, or something as simple as buying refund points with faction points. This, coupled with adjustments to the faction point requirements (a reduction), and adjustments to faction point payouts (an increase), seems to alleviate the problem you've just described.

And this could also be used for those Level 20s who are looking to nab more skill points (that "I'm level 20 and am ___% away from earning my next skill point").

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The manner of faction gain is easily observed and can be calculated into real time with no real hassle. There is no need for a wait and see approach as there is no guesswork. It can be easily rated in game hours how long it will take for a new person to get up to speed until they stop playing catch up with the rest of the player base in this system. The current quantity of time involved, even under perfect circumstances, leads to the premis that new people will always be behind the curve as new content comes out. I havent even owned the retail copy of the game for 54 days, but the time i do spend in the game are long sessions per day played.

So, UAX is immediately the only solution because other players have been playing longer, and have reached that "glass ceiling"? I don't see the precedent there.

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Looking at a skill for a possible build then considering the hours needed to get it is not fun. Playing against the same copied build sets is not fun. Playing with and against flawed AI, is not fun; especially after playing through the game multiple times on the pve side, because there is no real manipulation beyond the point and click style interface. It becomes more of a job than a game when the number of wins is considered as well. It still does not address the newer player versus the older player scenario where the newer player comes in one of two flavors typically. The first being the guy that knows nothing and has no way to learn than blindly moving through the pvp gains or the pve environment. This is your typical pve clueless PuG guy. The second being someone who looks to others for information without any real experience and taking the shortest path to copy the most effective build percieved. Neither of which are interesting to play with or against, because neither have the knowledge of why the builds work or dont work. Allowing for the experimentation of everything possible is the only real way to learn in any reasonable amount of time for a player.

You know...the new player you're describing here...we all fit into that category before, even during the BWEs, even with UAX. We all were looking toward each other for help, seeing what everyone was using.

That tendency in a new player to look to others for assistance isn't a result of a limited skillset, and it isn't the result of UAX. That tendency in a new player to look to others for assistance is a result of being a new player.

To illustrate, when you're teaching someone how to play Super Smash Bros. Melee, and it's their very first time playing...are you going to bombard them with everything in the game, or are you going to first show them the combinations with the joystick and the A button?

I've done it both ways, and the results are far better when you start them with just the basics. I could very well launch into an analysis of Wavedashing, fast-falling into an edge-grab to guard, Mid-air cancels, etc...but what benefit would that be for the new player? It would confuse the hell out of them--and actually, it does confuse the hell out of them.

Same principle here. UAX (the GW equivalent of dumping everything on a new player from the get-go) is not guaranteed to help the player improve. If anything, they'll get more frustrated, because instead of being shown a dozen or so techniques, they'll be getting almost 200. Instead of having to deal with only a dozen or so techniques, they'll be facing pages of new techniques.

The chances of that actually improving their game? Very slim. They'll be overwhelmed. This is something long established in video gaming. Somebody who's not played the game before will have difficulty if they are immersed entirely in the full breadth of that game's techniques.

And here I just commented on the actual idea, as well as the logic behind it.

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The fact that pure pvp areas dont exist yet and that is something im advocating. Pvp only areas is a rehaul and scrapping of the entire system as it stands now, which you are trying to argue against.

I've not made a PvP template in a while, but if PvP characters can only access those PvP areas (if those limitations are still in play), they are technically PvP only areas from that PvP character point of view. You have PvEs in there, sure, but when they (the PvPs) can't access the PvE areas...that does make those arenas effectively pure PvP areas. Do you get what I'm saying?

And since PvPs are limited to those arenas, placing faction point priests in there as well is a perfectly reasonable solution. I thought I had explained that fairly well in my previous post.

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Yet when you state "false" you have no real way to prove it, nor have you shown it by commenting on the solutions i and others have set forth, instead of arguing the possible flaws within the logic behind the solution. To which in turn when your points of argument are contested you have resorted to personal style attacks, dismissal of the comment, or ignoring of the content completely.

This above paragraph is irrelevant rhetoric. When I state "false" I do have a way to prove it, by replying to your entire post, and doing point-by-point, no less. If that doesn't show you I do read your entire posts, then you're blind. lol. I have replied to your points, regardless of what you may believe. And I have been commenting on the actual solutions. When I say UAX is a bad idea, because it would be the nuclear option, I'm commenting on UAX, which is the solution you and others have been suggesting. I don't know what your point of the above paragraph is...but I don't think you really have a point with it. Seems to be more a transparent bluff than anything else, so I'm going to go ahead and call you on it.

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Waiting to see while playing = not playing enough to understand.

No, waiting to see while playing = waiting to see while playing. I understand perfectly fine. And because I understand, that's why I'm saying we need to examine other options before dropping the bomb.